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Thursday, October 28, 2010


Transkrip Perbicaraan Anwar Ibrahim 28 Oktober 2010

Mahkamah Tinggi Jenayah 3
Di hadapan Yang Arif Dato’ Mohamad Zabidin Mohd Diah

PP: Semua hadir
PB: KS, SN, Datuk Param Cumaraswam, (Dato’ CV Prabhakaran, Ram Singh, Marissa, Radzlan tidak hadir)
WB: Zamri Idrus (untuk SP1)
Experts for the defence: Prof. David Wells (Dr. Brian MacDonalds tidak hadir)
AI hadir

[8.58 a.m.]
MY: Kes untuk sambung pemeriksaan balas SP2. Pihak-pihak masih sama.
KS: We have my Lord, with respect we have reservation (as to the ruling yesterday) as to whether your Lordship have really thought what he had in our submission yesterday.

Your Lordship in fact did not understand what we submitted.
YA: I’ve made myself clear yesterday you are entitled to the report on 10th July, but not the notes.
KS: That is already clear. That decision was made by your Lordship previously. In fact, your Lordship has directed for that report to be produce. That is not right at all with respect to the notes.
YA: Can I see both of you in chambers, please.
KS: Yes I think you should.
[9.00 a.m.] Stand down.

[9.02 a.m.] Kedua-dua pihak masuk ke Kamar Hakim.
[9.23 a.m.] Kedua-dua pihak keluar dari Kamar Hakim.
[9.25 a.m.]
SP2 mengangkat sumpah di dlm Bahasa Inggeris.

Q: This is your first case in court, isn’t it?
A: Yes

Q: You are unsure of the evidence and all. You cannot remember, make mistakes etc.
A: It happened two years ago.

Q: The best way is to refer to the notes to refresh your memory. Because you can’t remember a lot of things.
A: I only remember the work I did. Things I did not do, I cannot remember it.

Q: Your mistake goes beyond not remembering.
A: I tend to forget. I am human being.

Q: Yes. Human beings tend to forget and normal human being would want to refer to the notes. Would you not want to refer?
A: I’ve corrected myself that it is a mistake.

Q: That is in point of a mistake. I’m talking in point of you can’t remember. Why are you so reluctant to refer to the notes?

MY: What is your question? Are we having a conversation or what?
KS: I don’t know what he said. Forget about the DPP.
YA: Apa soalan, KS?
Q: Why is you reluctant to refer to your notes?
A: Not reluctant. I think it is not necessary because I still can recall whatever things I did.

Q: Can you recall everything?
A: [witness had no chance to answer]

Q: Can you recall the history you recorded from SP1?
A: Yes.

Q: In P22, the history is in 2 liner, isn’t it?
A: Yes

Q: Can the 2 liner constitute details? Can it be accepted as details? In your view?
A: Yes.

Q: Those are the details in the notes, nothing more. Let me remind you, you are under oath. A lot of things you said which amount to perjury.

MY: It’s not for you to say that.
SN: Prosecution always interfere. Why are you interfering? You are always interfering. []

Q: You are under oath.
A: Yes.

Q: Do you bear the consequences of taking oath?
A: I’ve explained before. 7 years imprisonment.

Q: 7 years. Long time. Let’s get the truth out of you.

KS: YA, we are of the reason to believe this witness is not telling the truth. And we are making this application that we have a hunch that this witness, with regard to the

nature of the evidence given that this witness what he said in court is different from what is stated in the notes. Notes constitutes a formal statement. A formal statement can

be in writing. In this case there are notes.
YA: Enough for now. Stand down for a while.
[9.31 a.m.] Stand down.

[9.35 a.m.] Pihak-pihak masuk ke Kamar Hakim.
[9.54 a.m.] Pihak-pihak keluar dari Kamar Hakim.

[10.02 a.m.]
YA: Panggil saksi. Diingatkan masih bawah sumpah.

Q: You talked about a report yesterday, dated 10th July.
A: Yes.

Q: You said it was dated.
A: As I said it was on the second page.

Q: Are you sure the date is on the second page?
A: The last part [read page 2 of the 10th July report].

Q: What was you waited for?
A: We are waiting for the full laboratory report.

Q: That was obtained? When was it obtained?
A: 11th of July

Q: The three of you make a report dated 13th July, was the laboratory result available at that time?
A: Yes.

Q: You received it on the 11th?
A: Yes.

Q: From whom did you get it.
A: It’s not me who get it directly. It’s received by the Forensic Department and I was called to see it.

Q: You have the benefit of three chemist report?
A: One report from the chemist.

Q: Who is this chemist?
A: Dr. Seah

Q: The one you received on 11th July?
A: Yes.

Q: Only one report?
A: Yes.

Q: No other report was referred? One is enough?
A: The report we received on DNA is …

Q: There’s only one chemist report adverted to in P22? No other chemist report was referred to?
A: No.

Q: You are under oath. No other chemist report was referred to?
A: No.

Q: The third time, no chemist report was referred to?
A: No.

Q: P22, page 3. There are two chemist report there isn’t it?
A: There are 2 components, but only one report. It comes together.

Q: [refer and read chemist report number]. Is that one report?

MY: He had answered it. First he said there is one reports but two components.
KS: …

Q: What are written there are 2 reports.
A: 2 components but one report.

Q: So one report, but two components. So only Dr. Seah’s report.
A: …

Q: Dr. Seah report is what number?
A: The report number one.

Q: Dr. Seah’s report, have you had a copy of that? Look at the top of the page, page 1. Please read it.
A: [read the number of the chemist report]

Q: So there are two reports?
A: I said it is two components.

Q: Look at P22. At the bottom of the page 3. Are both the same?
A: Yes.

Q: Both the same?
A: [read chemist report number]

Q: Are they the same as adverted to Dr. Seah’s report?
A: Yes.

Q: The same reports are referred to?
A: Yes.

Q: Exactly the same?
A: Yes.

Q: Read the report number in Dr. Seah’s report. Is it there in P22?
A: Yes.

Q: Looking at page 3 of P22. [read chemist report number]. They are not the same, isn’t it?
A: Which one is not the same? The number is 08-1 and 08-2.

Q: So one and two is the same? No difference between one and two?
A: Two is not included in the other one.

Q: So there is a difference.
A: Typing error.

Q: Mistake? You said it’s a typing error in P22?
A: We didn’t put the number 1 and 2.

Q: In which report there’s a typing error?
A: No.2 is missing in P22.

Q: It’s a typing error?
A: No. It’s a missing of number 2.

Q: So, there’s a third report?
A: Not a third report. Just a missing number 2.

Q: So, 1 and 2 is not together?
A: It’s missing.

Q: You said just now it’s a typing error.
A: Slip of tongue. No. 2 is missing from P22.

Q: Therefore it’s a difference report at page 3. Is one and two the same?
A: It’s different.

Q: There’s a different report at page 3. Has a different report been referred to in P22 page 3?
A: Which one?

Q: The second one?
A: …

Q: 08-1. More specific. The other one is 08-2. Would it be right? 08-2 is not in P22.
A: The report is the same.

Q: 08-1 and 08-2 is the same?
A: It’s different. The reference number is not stated in P22. But it is a full report.

Q: 08-1 is … should be 08-2.
A: 08-1 is also a report

Q: 08-1 is wrong, isn’t it?
A: It is not wrong, but it is stated at the back of the chemist report.

Q: Chemist report is 08-2, isn’t it? And in Dr. Seah report, [read report number at page 1]. 08-1 is not there?
A: 08-1 is on the last page.

Q: I’m talking about what is at page 3 of P22. There’s actually 3 reports. Wouldn’t it be right? 08-0, 08-1, and 08-2 at ID25 should also be in P22. So, there’s 3 reports

in P22.
A: They are not 3 reports.

Q: There are 3 reports?
A: There are no 3 reports.

Q: Look at the top. 08-0. Is 08-1 anywhere there?
A: Not on the first page.

Q: So what happened to 08-1?
A: It’s on the last page of Dr. Seah’s report.

Q: Where is it?
A: There. Toxicology analysis report. [read]

YA: Let me look at ID25 include.
KS: We are not supplied with that
MY: We’ve photostated 3 set for all parties. We are not making use of it.
KS: How come it’s there? We are not served with it.
MY: We talking about the specimens.
KS: We are not talking about the specimens but what was not supplied to us under S.51A Criminal Procedure Code.
MY: We are not relying on it. At no time the witness is relying on it.
KS: No question of reliance.
YA: The issue is since it is not supplied under s.51A of Criminal Procedure Code, whether it can be now made available. Now it is ID..
KS: Can they check first.
YA: Let’s proceed with other question. Or you want to stand down?
KS: Yes.
YA: Check whether it was served or not. If not served, then the question is whether it is admissible.
[10.26 a.m.] Stand down

[11.07 a.m.] Kedua-dua pihak masuk ke Kamar Hakim.
[11.17 a.m.] Kedua-dua pihak keluar dari Kamar Hakim.

[11.21 a.m.]
KS: Before we adjourn, we were at the documents your Lordship referred to which is technically not admissible because we were not served.
MY: It was not served,
YA: I’ll hear the full submission tomorrow.
KS: No doubt. And we will take submission on both issues together, i.e. the ruling yesterday as to the notes and the admissibility of the toxicology report.
YA: We can proceed with some other aspect with the witness.

Q: P22. As far as P22 is concern, it’s in reference only to 3 chemist report or rather 2?
A: Only one report, but 2 components.

Q: And with regard to Dr. Seah’s report, ID 25, it’s a very crucial report. Do you agree?
A: Yes.

Q: ID25 and P22, there a complete omission of 08-1.
A: 08-1 is there. The one that is not there is 08-2.

Q: I said what is in ID25. You have 08-0. In P22, there is 08-0. In ID25, there is 08-2 but that is missing in P22.
A: Yes.

Q: Likewise 08-1 is missing in ID25.
A: No. 08-1 is there. It is available

KS: We are going back to same thing My Lords. It was not served on us.

Q: Refer to ID25
A: it was one component consisting of 2 reports.

KS: The report with 08-1 is not served. Technically it is not admissible.
KS: …
MY: Chemist report is ID25, but yang belakang itu bukan ID25.
YA: Tomorrow I’ll make my decision. [] Jangan rujuk yang belakang. Kita tak tau sama ada itu admissible atau tidak.

Q: You said DSP Jude was present throughout 3 hours.
A: Yes.

Q: Who does the specimen taking at that time?
A: Specimens collected by us is the specimens is the swabs taken from the body and the anal area, also the blood for toxicology.

Q: How many items was handed to him?
A: 12.

Q: How many items were returned after the analysis?
A: We did not receive any return or any specimen.

Q: What about the results?
A: The result was not given to us until the 11th July.

Q: How many specimens were return? You send 12 specimens for analyisis. Surely you were waiting for the analysis of the 12th specimens. were all returned?
A: I don’t have any specimens returned, only the report was given on the 11th July.

Q: You have the laboratory report which is the result of the specimens which has been tested. And that result was in relation to how many specimens?
A: All specimens that was passed to DSP Jude.

Q: Is it reflected in P22? All 12?
A: in P22, when we put the summary…

Q: On page 3, how many specimens were there?
A: All the specimens.

Q: Where is it reflected in P22?
A: No.3 where we started with the “laboratory analysis as the following”

Q: Page 3, how many specimens are referred to there?
A: All the specimens. That’s why we put the last one to “refer to chemist report”. It’s all there.

Q: Page 3, are all there? The result of the 12 taken specimens sent to the laboratory for analysis.
A: Yes.

Q: That result is in relation to how many specimens referred to In there?
A: It’s not written but we have the report.

Q: Would it be correct you have it so you can make a conclusive report?
A: Yes.

Q: So you have all the material on 13th for you to come to the conclusion on page 4?
A: Yes

Q: So the report of P22 is conclusive, from whatever you requires and have at that time?
A: All the result is conclusive.

Q: You told the court yesterday that SP1 had been examined by another doctor at Pusrawi?
A: Yes.

Q: Are you aware when SP1 was examined by Dr. Osman at Pusrawi it is stated that the patient alleged that his anus is inserted with a plastic?
A: No. I’m not aware of it.

Q: Was SP1 questioned by anyone of you?
A: Yes.

Q: But this was never reveal to you ?
A: No, it was not.

KS: That will be all for now.
MY: What do I do now, YA? Do I re-examine now?
KS: SN Nair will continue.
SN: Can I ask for a stand down for 15 minutes?
YA: I’m sure you know what to cross. Of course I’ll give you 15 minutes, but please do not repeat the cross. You have to be on different aspect. You check what KS has asked first. We cannot have different counsel asking the same question to the same witness. Whatever KS has ask, you don’t touch on it.
[11.38 a.m.] Stand down.

[11.56 a.m.]
Q: You mentioned that you have interview Saiful.
A: I was not the one interviewing. I was there when the other 2 doctors interviewed him.

Q: But you read the note
A: Yes.

Q: Evidence in chief, you mentioned about lubricant
A: Yes. And also during the interview by the 2 doctors.

Q: You heard the interview?
A: Yes. And also from the history mentioned by the 2 doctors. When there is clarification of the history by the 2 doctors, I was there in the room.

Q: P22, and ID 25. Are you familiar with the documents?
A: Yes

Q: Is lubricant a vital piece of information?
A: Yes

Q: Why is it important?
A: It plays important role eg. In case of sodomy you use lubricant it definitely will help the process of sodomy without causing injury.

Q: ID25 and P22. You just said it is very important. Can u show me where in this report that you have ask specifically for a test for lubricant?
A: It is not necessary to make a test for lubricant.

Q: How can it be?
A: Lubricant may be use to make the process easier.

Q: You just mentioned that it was so important. Therefore it is important for you to look for.
A: It is not necessary.

Q: Now you said it is not necessary.
A: It’s necessary to know whether lubrication is use or not. But it is not necessary to test the presence of lubricant.

Q: How would you know if there was or there was not?
A: My job is to check for the presence of any semen or fluid.

Q: I just ask how would you know. My question is very specific.
A: I was made aware and it was rectified by the other 2 doctors.

Q: You are not answering my question. If you have interpreted certain results, you did not or a party to the analysis. Is that correct. you didn’t analyse the sample, did you?
A: I didn’t analyse it.

Q: So, how would you know? That it was there or not? Would you know or not the lubricant was used? You have to do a test. But the test was not done by you, but the chemist. That’s why I need to ask. Did you ask for the test of lubricant? Did you take a swab?
A: We didn’t ask for the test of the lubricant.

Q: You did not? That’s all I want to ask.
A: No.

Q: Lets go into the swab. But I’m sorry My Lord, I‘ve to ask for this question first. I want to ask about the habit of his bowel behaviour.
A: The only question about his bowel was whether he passed motion. That was what was inquire by the two doctors.

Q: But how about many hours before?
A: He mentioned he did not passed motion for 2 days before he came to us.

Q: Did you ask his natural, regular bowel habits?
A: I don’t really ask on that because to me the relevance of it is not important at that time.

Q: Not important at that time? Isn’t that important to ask a man of his natural bowel behaviour?
A: If you think something related to his bowel habits, …

Q: But that is important isn’t it? And normally asked by doctors.
A: The history is not something that you have to ask at the beginning and stop. If the examination is peculiar and related bowel movements, then we ask.

Q: It’s a very common medical practice to get full medical history. Can we agree on that?
A: Yes.

Q: Can we agree on that that the full medical history is incumbent?
A: Depends on what are the complaints.

Q: You said it is a sodomy case.
A: But the important at that time is to rectify if there is a process of sodomy or not. And if there is any finding that is relevant for .e.g. there is any injury, we need to rectify whether there are other things that may cause injury.

Q: Isn’t it not good practice and isn’t it incumbent in medical case that you get the full medical history?
A: Not necessary at the beginning. The history can come at any time during the process.

Q: You said you don’t have to ask?
A: The history continues. If we need we can clarify at any time.

Q: If a patient goes to the toilet 3 days at a time, or 3 times a day, is it not relevant in a sodomy case?
A: It depends on the case.

Q: I put it to you it is relevant. If someone goes to the toilet 3 times a day, there will be nothing.
A: Depends on the examination.

YA: He disagrees. You put it masa submission whether betul or tak betul.
SN: The witness is not answering my question. It is a simple question of medical examination.
YA: Dia tidak setuju.
SN: He said something else.
MY: He said depends on the situation. You are making a general statement.

Q: “Rectal flora”. Can you explain what it is? How many types and the quantity.

YA: In this particular case or generally?
SN: Generally

A: Organism available in normal person where it considers where organ, the house that they live ….

Q: I’m asking what types and what numbers do you find of a rectal flora in human bodies. Not the function of it.
A: There are various types. The one I can remember is echolie, repsolie, enrobics, protious and many more which I can’t remember all. The quantity can be millions, cannot be easily quantified.

Q: And any material that gets in can be taken out immediately, e.g. bacteria.
A: It may works immediately, but I’m not sure. It may take effect immediately what goes in, but how fast it can be acted upon I’m not sure.

Q: What you heard about what he told Dr. Osman he discuss about pain. Did he ever discuss about pain in the anus?
A: It’s a further clarification that was asked to the victim. The reason why he went to Pusrawi, he complaints was pain in the anus.

Q: That was mentioned to you by SP1?
A: When I went through the notes, that’s what I get.

Q: And you never ask him. Of course, you examined him. Did you ask him as well?
A: No. I did not go further on his history.

Q: Did he say the pain was still there?
A: I didn’t ask.

Q: But he never told? He never told you. Did he told anyone of you that he is still in pain?
A: I cannot remember.

Q: IDD16-Pusrawi Report shown. Refer to the first page. Can you read it.
A: [read medical history]

Q: You mentioned that he went to Pusrawi…
A: It’s stated pain initially but cancelled of.

Q: I don’t think it was cancelled of.
A: Oh, the third line.

Q: Let me read it to you….”Pain when passing motion”
A: [doctor reiterated]

Q: You mentioned earlier that he went to Pusrawi and did an examination there.
A: Yes.

Q: If you are aware that there was pain, would you or would you not ask him again before you proceed?
A: Before I start, I will definitely ask the patient whether I can proceed or not.

Q: If the patient complaints about the pain, would you ask him. If there is pain, would you then proceed?
A: If before I start my examination, I’ll explain to the patient I’ll insert something into the bottom part, and if there’s pain I will definitely not proceed.

Q: Are you suggesting that he was not in pain?
A: Yes. I ask whether I can proceed.

Q: Is it not a good practice to ask the question in the first place?
A: Definitely we have to ask.

Q: Did you ask him?
A: Not directly whether he has pain or not. It is the way I explained to him the procedure about discomfort and pain and the patient said it’s okay.

Q: Did you ask him directly?
A: Because during the process or before the procedure we need to ask.

Q: Before you did the procedure, you need to ask, don’t you?
A: I can’t remember. Whether or not I ask him directly I can’t remember. But I did explain. I can’t remember specifically whether I ask or not.

Q: Do you agree it is a proper practice to ask?
A: Yes.

Q: And you explained to him?
A: Yes.

Q: What did you do next? Step by step.
A: I explained the procedure that I want to do, I started of with the ….

Q: I want more specific. His position.
A: I position him in the left lateral on the examination bed and ask… the patient has to face against me, facing the wall so that I would be on the back. The right side of the hand and the body will be on the upper part.

Q: [witnessed referred to an article with a diagram] would it be in that position? Is that a lateral position?
A: Yes. This is a lateral position. The knee needs to go further on the chest. That’s the position I can do the examination easily. It gives good exposure and that is the position the patient will be comfortable during the procedure.

Q: Is there any guidelines you have as a medical officer as to the positioning?
A: There is no guidelines as to the position during the proctoscopy examination. The standard practice usually people will put in a lateral position.

Q: And where did you get this standard practice from?
A: In the process of studying from student to medical doctor. It’s a common practice in hospitals.

Q: Is there any international guidelines?
A: I’m not really aware of it.

Q: Agree that if you do according to your own standard there is a high risk of contamination?
A: I disagree.

Q: This is according to your style and not on the international guidelines.
A: It is something that we practice so many many years.

Q: And there is no guidelines at all?
A: I’m not aware of it. There is no specific positioning when you do proctoscopy examination.

Q: You did this on daily basis, don’t you? And you can’t refer to me any guidelines?

MY: What are you asking?
YA: He already answered that he is not aware.
MY: He already answered.
SN: There must be a guideline somewhere. But he doesn’t know.
MY: There could be.
YA: Kalau you kata ada guideline, then you tunjuk.

Q: Now swabs. How do you go about taking the swabs?
A: As I explained just now, after putting him in the position of left lateral position, and the knee upper to the chest to give us good exposure to do the work. Subsequently, I use the equipment called proctoscope. In this case, plastic proctoscope. Before I put the proctoscope in, I use saline. To my experience if I put the proctoscope without saline or any lubrication it can cause discomfort or any other injury at the anal. And I can’t push it in of the splinter. I’m worried I’m the one who would cause the injury. So I decided to use a Lignocaine gel as a lubricant for my insertion of the proctoscope to the victim. I successfully put the proctoscope in him and I visualize the rectum and with me also there was a sterile swab. It was passed to me and I use that swab to take the sample to the highest place which it can reach in the rectum as the first specimen. And then I swab in circular the highest part and take out the swab and put in the container which is already made available by Dr. Siew. I take 2 samples from the upper part that the most reachable part of the rectum and passed it back to Dr. Siew and he labelled it. And the same goes to the third specimen when I bring the proctoscope out from the patient’s rectum.

Q: How about peri anal swab?
A: Peri anal swab was taken before I proceed with the proctoscopy examination.

Q: Refer P22, page 3, item 1-12. Is this swabs taken in this sequence?
A: Yes.

Q: Who did the swabbing first?
A: Dr. Khairul.

Q: And you when? Second?
A: Yes.

Q: This is exactly the sequence?
A: Yes.

Q: Did you then photographed the swabs?
A: I can’t remember. Photographs were taken but the swabs I can’t remember.

Q: What do you mean?
A: Photographs were taken when I did the examination. The swabs I was not aware. As far as I remember, I passed the swabs to Dr. Siew immediately.

Q: What was the states of the swabs? Were they clean swabs?
A: Definitely. I follow the sterility method that’s supposed to be followed. And it is supposed to be a clean process of taking the swabs.

Q: What was the condition of the swabs after taking?
A: I saw some staining on the swabs in the process of taking out the swabs. I can visualized it.

Q: Are you referring to mucosa?
A: It should not be. Mucosa is the wall of the rectum. We swab material on the mucosa.

Q: You’ve got to swab the wall.
A: Mucosa is the wall. We swab the wall. But what comes out is not mucosa, but the material on the mucosa.

Q: Is photographing swabs a standard procedure? Is it a good thing to do?
A: The swabs are taken for analysis, it is meant for analysis and it will be sent to the laboratory and ought to be ratify.

Q: Are you trained forensic?
A: No.

Q: You said that photographs were taken. What photographs were taken?
A: It is for the findings during examination. Findings on body like scars. The one I remember was at the body. When you have a positive finding, you photographs it.

Q: Positive findings only? Or generally you’ll take the photographs? Other you did not? There would be other scars, e.g. appendicitis.
A: If there is positive findings.

Q: Did you take any photographs?
A: I did not.

Q: Did you know any photographs were taken?
A: Yes.

Q: Were you aware there were earlier proctoscopic examination before you proceed?
A: Yes. On the further clarification on the Pusrawi story. According to the victim, he said he was examined, but whether using proctoscope or not, he did not know.

Q: You did not ask him?
A: I did not ask him directly, but he said some instrument were used.

Q: So, there was some instrument used. Was it instument used to enter his anus?
A: We do not know the details.

Q: What else if not proctoscope?
A: I’m not aware of that.

MY: He doesn’t know that this thing is called proctoscope. If he said it is instrument, it is instrument.
YA: Ask him whether the instrument is proctoscope.

Q: Did he say anything was inserted?
A: He did not say inserted but used.

Q: Did you ask him?
A: I did not ask further.

Q: Is it not logical to ask? If there is something used, surely there should be lubricant introduced inside?
A: Yes.

Q: When you use the proctoscope, that would be a second one, is it? There will be contamination.
A: Without using the proctoscope there will be no way I will know there is penetration towards the anus.

Q: You could’ve asked this question.
A: I did not ask on that part. I was not involved in the history taking.

Q: But he was there.
A: I was made aware something was done to him but to what extent I did not ask.

Q: Why did you not ask?
A: Because at that time I just want to do the examination on the patient. I don’t clarify further. I know in my mind something might have been done onto the patient.

Q: Surely here if something was done, were you aware when you swab there would be contamination or cross-contamination?
A: Yes.

Q: Surely here if something was done, don’t you think it is a good practice to ask first to prevent contamination or cross-contamination?
A: It’s a good practice to ask.

Q: You said pictures were taken. Where in P22 stated that pictures were taken?
A: Of course it was already written on the report so it was not necessary.

Q: Can you produce the photographs?
A: It’s not with me. It’s with the Forensic Department.

Q: Is it available?
A: I need to check it first.

Q: Can it be made available?
A: Yes.

SN: I would like to look at the photograph.
YA: Are you entitled to it? I made a ruling which went up to the Federal Court.
SN: This is in the course of proceeding. What was in the Federal Court is the pre-trial stage. So it may not apply.
MY: As of now, what has been establish is the photographs of the scars. If you want other photographs, what is the relevancy?
SN: Relevant for my expert.
MY: You’ve not establish which part.

Q: Which photographs of the part taken?
A: Example, pigmentation of the scars.

Q: Were there photographs as to the genital area and the anus?
A: No. Just for the scars.

Q: About the high rectal swabs. How high were the swabs taken?
A: The equipment, i.e. the proctoscope’s length is about 6.5 cm. If you can enter completely it in, you can reach the rectal part. Specimens can be taken, after you take out the introducer, you can go as high as 2.5 cm.

Q: How long is a male adult rectum?
A: The rectum is about 12-15 cm.

Q: And the anal canal?
A: 3-4 cm.

Q: In this particular case?
A: If I put the proctoscope of 6.5 cm, I already reached the lower part of the rectum. And I have the swab with a length of 15 cm, and if I take a length of a 15cm swab, I can go 2.5 cm further.

Q: [witness is shown with a proctoscope from the defence] Are they of a standard size?
A: We have the smallest one for kids.

Q: This one, is it the same size you use?
A: Mine was 6.5 cm.

YA: Anybody has a ruler?
[witness is given a ruler and measured.]

A: Yours is longer.

YA: Berapa panjang?
A: This one is about 8 cm. I used 6.5 cm.

Q: You said you went 2.5 cm further up.
A: Yes. From the end of the proctoscope.

Q: What was the condition of the anal? The rectum?
A: The rectum was empty.

Q: Did you record that down?
A: I did not.

Q: Would it not be important to record it down?
A: Not for this case.

Q: Why?
A: Because if it is full, it will be significant because faeces will come down. But no faeces came down from the rectum. So I have opportunity to take without the disturbance of the faeces.

Q: So you got a swab from an empty rectum?
A: Yes.

Q: We go back on the pain. If someone complaints of severe pain and come to you for examination, would you be able to touch him at the anus?
A: I will need to elicit where the pain is and I need to localize the pain.

Q: They can’t even sit down, is it correct? How are you going to examined him?
A: External examination only. We will find the pain and gives us the idea of …

Q: What about the peri anal region? Something you cannot see?
A: Normally we will not put the proctoscope in without a proper anaesthesia.

Q: So, if you have anal pain, you can still do anal examination after giving anaesthesia?
A: Yes.

Q: In this case, there is an element of pain. Yet you put the proctoscope in easily.
A: Like I explained just now, I ask the patient and explained the procedure. I explained to him that he might experience discomfort and pain. But he said okay. And I continue with the examination.

Q: Did you use saline?
A: I use saline to lubricate the proctoscope before I insert it during my first attempt.

Q: If you use saline, will there be any effect of anymic?
A: The amount is small.

Q: You think small amount will not case anymic?
A: Yes.

Q: Are you sure?
A: It is a normal mechanism to prevent us from causing injury. If there is resistance, I will not put it in because I might cause injury.

Q: How many attempt?
A: Only once.

Q: SP1 mentioned of a non-consensual act. Did he mentioned it to you?
A: Yes.

Q: If that is so, usually the anal area will be constricted and therefore it will be difficult to enter?
A: Yes, difficult normally.

Q: Even if you were to do it using gel, it will still be very difficult to do it.
A: Initially we have problems to enter, but in human being there is a physiology process called physiological reflects at the anal canal where the constricting anal will relax.

Q: But that’s a very long process. We are talking about an instance, a very instance constrict reaction. It will not only cause some level of trauma, but also tear and seizure.
A: It may.

Q: Normally if person have pain in the anus, what will be the cause?
A: Can be caused by Lots of factors. One, must consider whether he has infection. That’s a common thing. There can be infection at the peri anal and also the inside. The second one is where you have like disease at the anal rectum where you can have active faeces which can cause a lot of pain. third one is if you have any injury inside, problem with your motion, you have like a fissure that can cause pain also.

Q: Tenesmus?
A: Yes.

Q: What is a tenesmus?
A: It is a feeling or the sensation that you have when you want to defecate. The feeling that you cannot completely defecate.

Q: How long would this pain subside?
A: Depends on the disease.

Q: What about tenesmus? How long will it take?
A: It is very individual. I can’t really say.

Q: 3 days?
A: For example if the injury is very small, it is faster. Less than 24 hours.

Q: Is the rectum sensitive to pain? Generally.
A: No.

Q: Which part of the anal rectum region can cause pain?
A: [recording not clear]

Q: Do you agree that the rectum is where a lot of absorption takes place?
A: It’s not only rectum but it is the entire large area of the colon.

Q: Large bowel?
A: Yes. Not so much of the anal area but the upper rectum.

Q: Because of the absorption of the water, it can cause constipation. It may become dry?
A: The absorption can depend on the body. If you need to conserve fluid your body can retain water. So if your body doesn’t really need much of absorption, it will not absorb so much.

Q: What about constant absorption in terms of organic fluid at the anal?
A: If anything physiology is coming up downwards it absorb. But if it is coming down upwards I’m not sure. It is a process that is already happened in the intestine that has already started before it enters the rectum.

Q: Are you suggesting that the rectum is discriminating here?
A: No. It is a continuous process. It is fully there and the absorption can happen there only.

Q: In some patient, you have to administer certain medication to the rectal area. What are the general pain relief?
A: Paracetamol, voltaren.

Q: What about voltaren? That is one of it? What is the purpose of using that analgesic?
A: It gives you a faster action.

Q: What happened in there is absorption, isn’t it?
A: Yes.

Q: It doesn’t matter isn’t it? As long as it is organic, it will absorb?
A: Like I said, I can’t commit that everything can be absorb.

Q: But, it is organic fluid, not medication. It’s not oil. So can be absorb?
A: It can be absorbed.

Q: Did you do that examination on SP1. Is it not a good practice to do?
A: No.

Q: Why not?
A: Putting my finger in the anus may cause contamination. And second is injury.

Q: Are you using a sterile glove? And you need to know the anus laxity.
A: I can assess the laxity of the anus by putting the proctoscope. We will know whether it is a good tone of the anus laxity.

Q: Is it the best method? It is what I’ve been told.
A: One of the way, but not the best. If you want to assess, the best is using … manufacture That is the best instrument.

Q: This is not the best.
A: Yes.

Q: Assuming that SP1 was in a lot of pain would you be able to examine him with proctoscope?
A: I don’t think I can assess if he was in a lot of pain. The pasm and the splinter may prevent it from entering.

Q: So sensitive that you can’t even touch it?
A: The patient won’t allow you to []

SN: That’s all my question for today. Subject to recall.
YA: You have finish?
SN: Subject to the notes.
YA: Can we start with the re-examination this afternoon?
SN: YB Karpal and accused has some matter in the Parliament. No. YB Karpal has some other matters.
YA: If you want to stop early, we can stop now until 2.00 p.m. Stand down.
[1.20 p.m.] Stand down.

Kedua-dua pihak masuk ke Kamar Hakim dan prosiding ditangguhkan ke hari esok.

Tuesday, October 26, 2010


Transkrip Perbicaraan Datuk Sri Anwar Ibrahim - 25 Oktober 2010:

Mahkamah Tinggi Jenayah 3
Di hadapan Yang Arif Dato’ Mohamad Zabidin Mohd Diah

PP: Semua hadir kecuali NH
PB: KS, SN, Datuk Param Cumaraswam, Dato’ CV Prabhakaran, Ram Singh, Marissa, Prof. David Wells, Dr. Brian MacDonalds
WB: Zamri Idrus (untuk SP1)
AI hadir

[9.28 a.m.] Kedua-dua pihak memasuki kamar Hakim.
[9.47 a.m.] Kedua-dua pihak keluar dari kamar Hakim.

[9.49 a.m.]
MY: Hari ini ditetapkan untuk soal balas SP2, SP3 dan SP4. Sebelum KS mulakan soal balas, saya memohon mahkamah ini untuk memanggil Dr. Siew, SP3 untuk bertanya soalan untuk satu isu.
YA: KS, ada bantahan?
KS: Tiada bantahan.

EIC of Dr. Siew (SP3) by MY

SP3 mengangkat sumpah di dalam Bahasa Inggeris.

Q: Dr. Siew, you informed the court on 14 October 2010 that all the specimens taken by Dr Khairul and Dr Razali are handed to you and put in the container.
A: Yes. On 28th June, I put it in the container all the specimens.

Q: You said you hand over the container to ASP Jude.
A: Yes.

Q: How did you hand it?
A: I placed all the sealed containers in a plastic bag and handed them to ASP Jude.

Q: Can you describe this bag?
A: It’s a plastic bag labelled with Forensic Department.

Q: Did you write anything on the specimens?
A: Yes. The type of specimens and my signature.

Q: May I show the witness the plastic bag? Can you tell the court and describe what this is?
A: This is the secure plastic bag which carries the label of “Forensic Department Hospital Kuala Lumpur” with the name Mohd Saiful Bukhari bin Azlan, case number, i/c number, the nature of the specimens which I seal and put in container and put in the plastic bag [read list of specimen written on the plastic bag]. I didn’t sign the bag. Just now I made mistake.

Q: Is this the plastic bag you put the container?
A: Yes.

Q: Is this the same plastic bag you use?
A: Yes.

Q: Who’s handwriting?
A: My handwriting.

Plastic bag from Forensic Department HKL dikemukakan dan ditandakan sebagai P27.

Q: Was it sealed when you hand it over?
A: I just seal like this [show to the court how he sealed it]

MY: YA, I have no question.
KS: We reserve cross for SP3.
YA: So you wants to cross SP2 first? We have SP2, SP3 and SP4.
KS: Yes.

Cross-examination of SP2, Dr. Razali b. Ibrahim.

SP2 mengangkat sumpah di dalam Bahasa Inggeris.

Q: Bercakap dalam BM atau BI?
A: English
YA: If angkat sumpah dalam BI kena jawab dalam BI.

Q: You took an oath just now.
A: Yes.

Q: What was it?
A: A declaration to tell the truth to the court.

Q: Not exactly isn’t it? You are here not to tell truth but the whole truth. [] more than the truth. The consequences can be really fatal if you don’t tell the truth.
A: The court will decide it.

Q: Are you aware of the consequences?
A: Accused for not telling the truth.

Q: Not accused of, but charge for not telling the truth.
A: Understood.

Q: When did you qualify?
A: I qualified as a medical doctor in 1998 from USM.

Q: You are a general surgeon?
A: Yes.

Q: No particular specialization?
A: Not yet.

Q: At this point in time just a general surgeon?
A: Yes.

Q: You qualified in 1998?
A: Yes. As a medical doctor.

Q: Did you take any oath as a medical doctor?
A: It’s the oath we took the moment when we enter medical school. Hypocrite Oath.

Q: Not hypocrite oath, but Hippocratic Oath.
A: Yes.

Q: You are here as an important witness. Are you a doctor or surgeon?
A: Yes. You can call both.

Q: Have you had experience in attending sodomy cases?
A: I have two cases before this, examination, but this is the first time I’m called into the court to testify.

Q: Two is not so many.
A: Yes.

Q: Exactly two?
A: The one I remember is two before this case.

Q: What about the rest?
A: The one I can remember is two.

Q: These two what were they?
A: Cases where the patient alleged to be sodomized.

Q: When did you go to court for these two sodomy cases?
A: I’ve never been called to court for this cases. This is my first time.

Q: What are the normal procedure when someone come and alleged to be sodomized?
A: If any of this case, first it is being attended by medical officer from Emergency Department. They attend the case, and if subsequently they need further check- up, it’s either us or other department, Forensic Department to further assess this case.

Q: Normally it is only one doctor who attended the case?
A: It’s always 3 doctors in HKL.

Q: The first thing to be done is to advert to the medical history of the patient?
A: Yes. So that it can be assessed by the Emergency Department.

Q: In this case, who did it?
A: Dr. Khairul.

Q: What’s your role?
A: I was called to do examination of the bottom part of anus/rectum to see evidence which support the allegation.

Q: What was the medical history supplied to all of you? The one of the Emergency Department referred to all of you?
A: it was summarised by a police officer the moment I arrived at the room.

Q: What do you mean?
A: The story as to what happened to the victim before he was produced to us.

Q: Done by Dr. Khairul?
A: Yes. It was done by Emergency doctor and Forensic Doctor.

Q: Both Dr. Khairul and Dr. Siew?
A: Yes.

Q: So you are not involved?
A: No. Not me.

Q: In what form?
A: Recorded in emergency notes.

Q: It must be in notes and details isn’t it?
A: Yes.

Q: So, they were notes pertaining to that?
A: Yes.

Q: Are they available?
A: Yes.

Q: You talk about police officer just now. How did he get into the picture?
A: The case is considered as medico-legal. Usually in this case, we have a report done, or someone to contact the police officer in the case.

Q: In this case it is DSP Jude?
A: Yes.

Q: Who called him?
A: I don’t know. When I was there he was already there.

Q: At 8.30 p.m.?
A: I was there at 9.00 p.m.

Q: Are you present throughout the examination?
A: Yes.

Q: You did the examination of SP1, Saiful?
A: Yes.

Q: What is the purpose of the police officer to be present at the examination?

MY: The witness has explained. This is a medico-legal case.
KS: []
YA: He has explained. We assume the role of the police officer is pertaining with medico-legal case.

Q: What is his role then? Within the parameters the Lordship has explained just now.
A: To make sure that the chain of event of the examination and specimen been taken and send to respective place properly and it was to observe the protocol being done.

Q: What’s the protocol in this case?
A: It’s whatever specimens taken was properly done and send to the proper place.

Q: You did a joint report by you and the other two doctors?
A: Yes.

Q: I refer to the report, P22. When was this prepared?
A: Examination on 28th June 2008.

Q: Examination on 28 June 2008, 9.00 pm?
A: Yes.

Q: Extended the work period for few hours?
A: We finished the exam on 12.00 a.m.

Q: 3 hours?
A: Yes.

Q: Was ASP Jude present at the whole time?
A: Yes. As far as I remember.

Q: P22, look at the wording “Medical History”. Just two (2) lines isn’t it?
A: Yes.

Q: That’s not normal is it? A history must go beyond two lines?
A: Not necessarily. Depends on the important things that you want to highlight.

Q: History can be more than one line?
A: Yes.

Q: In this report, the history is in two lines. Was there any mention by SP1 who sodomized him? Under the history?
A: No. Just mention ‘public figure’.

Q: Just ‘public figure’ and nothing beyond that?
A: Yes.

Q: The examination was conducted on 28th June 2008. When was this report (P22) prepared?
A: On 13th July 2008.

Q: Was this report requested by anyone? By any authority?
A: I’m not informed. By a higher authority.

Q: You assume it?
A: I was not directly involved.

Q: You assume it was requested by a higher authority?
A: Yes.

Q: Why is that?
A: Because usually the higher authority needs the report.

Q: What was the reason behind it?

MY: Don’t go on assumption.
KS: []
MY: S.60 of EA is very clear. He was talking on what he knows, not what he don’t know.
KS: Yes. Assumption.

Q: What is your assumption?
A: I was invited, was called to be present.

Q: What’s assumption?
A: This is a medico-legal case. So must by higher authority.

Q: Higher authority means the police?
A: I don’t know. Maybe.

Q: Normally in this case, by police?
A: Yes. Should be the police.

Q: On the 13th July 2008?
A: By the police.

Q: Was any report prepared on 28th June 2008?
A: Initial report.

Q: By the three (3) of you on 28th June?
A: Yes. Only on history and examination.

Q: It is a separate report from this one?
A: Yes.

Q: The initial report, would it be available?
A: Yes.

Q: Those notes are available? The one you prepare on 28th June 2008?
A: Yes.

Q: Typed written?
A: Yes.

Q: Just like this one, P22?
A: Yes.

Q: So the initial report is typed written and prepared by the three of you and available?
A: Yes.

Q: Can it be produce in the court ?
A: Depends on the court. It’s not my authority to say so.

Q: This is a public document, so it must be made available.
A: Depends on the court.

Q: Is it available?
A: Yes.

Q: Who signed it?
A: I can’t remember.

Q: Is it signed on 28th June 2008?
A: The date I can’t remember.

Q: When was the examination conducted?
A: The examination was done on 28th June.

Q: The report was done on 28th June 2008?
A: I can’t remember,

Q: The report was done subsequent to the examination?
A: Yes.

Q: Did you sign it?
A: Yes.

Q: Was the report requested by higher authority?
A: Yes. Could be or could not be. But I don’t know who.

Q: Assuming the Higher authority means the police?
A: I don’t know. Could be.

Q: On 28th June 2008, what was the material before the three of you? What did you have? You have a police report, don’t you?
A: I was not aware of the police report. I was called for examination, so I not aware of any report.

Q: Was that police report made available?
A: I’m not sure. But it’s there.

Q: Subsequently, there was a police report?
A: Yes. The report of Travers Report 4350/08.

Q: Who signed P22?
A: The three of us.

Q: You are one of the signatories?
A: Yes.

Q: [refer P22.] Is there any police report mentioned there?
A: Travers report 4350/08.

Q: So there’s a report? You have the sight of the report?
A: During the event of 28th June 2008, I didn’t see it.

Q: Was there a report made available to you? Unless it is not included in your report.
A: I don’t see the police report.

MY: Don’t quarell la.
YA: Yang belakang jangan bising sangat. I don’t’ want to hear you guys, I just want to hear the parties. If not, you have to go out.
MY: [] at the time of exam what did u have. []
YA: []
KS: This is cross-examination. so I can ask anything and []
YA: You have to give time. Otherwise he can’t answer.
KS: Witness must co-operate.
SP2: I’ll give my co-operation.

YA: Your question, on 28thJune was the police report available to you?
SP2: There’s a police report, but I don’t know what’s the content of it.

Q: What do you mean?
A: There’s a report but what was written in it is not available to me.

Q: Did you read the report before you sign it?
A: Yes.

Q: Isn’t it clearly stated Police Report 4350/08. So it must’ve been available to the 3 of you.
A: It was in the file, but not with me.

Q: It is stated that there’s a police report, but was it available to you?
A: No.

Q: Was it there in front of the 3 of you?
A: I can’t remember, it’s in the file.

YA: Police report ada dalam fail, did you see the report?
A: I don’t really see and remember which is which.

Q: Did you read Page third line?
A: Yes.

Q: So the report was there. Mentioned there?
A: Yes.

Q: What was the report mentioned about?
A: The report was there. But I don’t go into the detail.

Q: The report was there?
A: Yes.

Q: You saw it?
A: Yes, but don’t go into the details.

Q: Did the 3 of you discuss about the police report?
A: It wasn’t discussed. We discuss merely on the examination.

Q: On 28th June 2008 examination was conducted. Between 28th June 2008 and 13th July, there’s another report during that time?
A: The history and examination of the patient.

Q: So the history is more detailed than in this report?
A: I can’t remember.

Q: []
A: []

KS: The initial report is very important. Contemporaneous. That’s why we need all the reports.

Q: The report, is it possible to be made available afterwards?
A: It is not within my territory to say that.

KS: Does the report exist?
YA: Which report? Your last question, are you talking about the history?
KS: I’m asking for the report.

Q: Whether the report is available now?
A: I don’t know because I don’t know where is it now.

KS: []
MY: [] available.
KS: Of course it’s available, as my learned friend says.
MY: YA, what my learned friend concerns is history.
KS: Not history. But the report. I’m not interested on the history but on the report. Is it available?
YA: You’ve to ask him whether it is available now.
KS: The witness says so. And also the DPP.

Q: Is the initial report available at the hospital?
A: Should be.

YA: Boleh di kemukakan?
A: Has to ask the hospital. It is not with me now.

MY: I have to find out first because this is the only one we have.
KS: We wish to get the report, YA. It’s very important [].
YA: Kalau dibenar balik ke hospital, boleh bawak if available?
KS: The consequence is broken. P22 is important but another report prepared between 28th June 2008 and 13th July 2008 is more important.
YA: You cannot force him now.
KS: I did not force him.
YA: Kita suruh dia check balik. Kalau ada, he will produce it. I think we reserve itu dulu and sambung dengan yang lain. P22 is available now, it’s with you. Tapi the initial report dia tak ada now.
KS: P22 is the most important apart from the other one. It was connected to the other one.
YA: So what you wants to do now?
KS: []
MY: If I may suggest we proceed with cross-exam. And also under Section 157, oral evidence is important, but not the report. The person who examined should proceed to be question on his oral testimony.
KS: The entire case depends on the P22 and the initial report. Now we know the existence of the initial report and therefore we need both the reports.
YA: But it depends whether it is admissible or not. Kalau tak, no point. I’m going to adjourn for a while and resume when all parties are ready.

[10.41 a.m.] Stand down.

[12.17 p.m.] Kedua-dua pihak memasuki kamar Hakim.
[12.25 p.m.] Kedua-dua pihak keluar dari kamar Hakim.

[12.27 p.m.]
MY : Saya ingin memaklumkan kepada mahkamah semasa mahkamah ditangguhkan saya telah berjumpa dengan ketiga-tiga doktor mengenai laporan perubatan. []. Saya difahamkan kemungkinan report itu tiada sekarang. Tetapi Dr. Siew mempunyai unsign copy of the report. Saya memohon satu tarikh untuk permohononan secara rasmi dibuat kepada HKL untuk SP2 [] but at the moment we have the unsigned copy. For this point of time, I’ve only the unsigned copy but this one we can make it available to KS untuk melihatnya. Saya mohon jika diizinkan masa diberikan kepada doktor dan IO untuk mendapatkan laporan itu daripada HKL sekiranya ada. Minta perbicaraan ditangguhkan kepada esok. Saya percaya rakan saya tiada bantahan.
KS: No, except this. The unsigned copy has no consequences. The copy signed by the three doctors is what we want.
YA: If ada, we should give them time.
KS: It is available because the witness says there’s a signed copy..
YA: So you want to locate for the signed copy?
KS: Yes.
YA: Sambung besok pada 9.00 a.m. sharp. Saksi datang balik esok.
[12.31 p.m.] Adjourned.

Thursday, October 14, 2010


Transkrip Perbicaraan Datuk Sri Anwar Ibrahim - 14 Oktober 2010:

Mahkamah Tinggi Jenayah 3
Di hadapan Yang Arif Dato’ Mohamad Zabidin Mohd Diah
PP: Semua hadir
PB: KS, SN, Datuk Param Cumaraswam, Dato’ CV Prabhakaran, Radzlan, Marissa
AI hadir

[9.16 a.m.] Kedua-dua pihak masuk ke Kamar Hakim.
[9.38 a.m.] Kedua-dua pihak keluar dari Kamar Hakim.

[9.41 a.m.]
MY: Hari ini ditetapkan untuk pemeriksaan utama saksi pendakwaan ketiga, Dr. Siew.
KS: We have this matter where a report made by one person who could be a witness. In fact, we were made to understand that 112 statements were taken from him, but it is not the end of the matter. There is another one recently who made another report. We would want to make a necessary application to hold them for contempt.
YA: MY ada apa nak cakap?
MY: I’m concern about the report. We do not know until it has been published. []
YA: As stated by KS, he intends to file a proper application. I think the law is clear on this that they need to do that so that all facts could be properly laid down before the court At this stage the court cannot do anything. Any formal application, KS?
KS: Yes. We will file it.
YA: So, proceed with SP3.
MY: Pemeriksaan akan dijalankan oleh Dato’ Nordin Hassan.

NH: YA, mohon dipanggil saksi ketiga, Dr Siew Shue Feng.

SP3 mengangkat sumpah di dalam Bahasa Inggeris.

YA: I think we should record why we reserve cross for SP2. Can we record why we jump later.
KS: Because we want to reserve cross-examination until all the three doctors testified.
YA: Otherwise the report will show why we proceed to SP3 without cross-examine SP2.
Q: You are now attached to the Forensic Department of HKL, is that right?
A: Yes.

Q: Since 2004?
A: Yes.

Q: Your position is as Forensic Medical Pathologist, is it true?
A: Yes.

Q: What are your qualifications to be Forensic Medical Pathologist?
A: A bachelor degree in medicine and surgery from Madipa Academy of Higher Education, India, since 1997. I’m holding a Master Degree in Medical Pathology specialise in Forensic Medical Department from 2004 from UKM.

Q: Can you tell the court the work scope as Forensic Medical Pathology.
A: My work involves medico-legal autopsies requested by police officer; also examine living person involving medico-legal case.

Q: Do you also conduct forensic examination?
A: Yes.

Q: Please tell the court your working experience?
A: House officer experience in HKL 1998, subsequently as a medical officer in Hospital Sibu 1998-2000, 2000-2004 I’m working under the pathology unit as a medical officer while pursuing my master. Since 2004 , I work as a specialist at HKL until today.

Q: Since 1997 to 2004, you have conducted many cases involving forensic examination?
A: Yes.

Q: Can you tell the court how many forensic examination have you conducted so far?
A: 200-300 cases approximately.

Q: Since 1998 how many sodomy cases have you conducted?
A : Grossly about 20.

Q: In general, what are the general procedures in taking specimens?
A: First, wear surgical glove, use sterile swab stick to take the specimen, after that put the specimen in the already labelled bottle and seal the bottle.

Q: Are this procedure recognised by the international standard?
A: Yes.

Q: Specifically what are the equipments used in sodomy cases?
A: Sterile swab, sterile swab stick and sterile proctoscope and also lubricant.

Q: I show P19 and P20, swab stick and sterile proctoscope. Are these the equipment used in extracting specimen in sodomy cases?
A: Yes. Sterile swab stick and sterile proctoscope.

Q: Have you ever undergone any training and courses?
A: In 2007, I underwent short courses on Forensic Anatomy and Human Identification at the Anthropological Centre, University of Tennessee in US. From 2009 until January 2010, I undergone my special training of [] at the University Herakal General Hospital, Greece.

Q: Are you a member of Malaysia Medical Council?
A: Yes. Ordinary member.

Q: Member of medico-legal society?
A: Ordinary member.

Q: Have you ever testify in court?
A: Yes. Approximately 100 cases.

Q: To the best of your knowledge, has your testimony been accepted in court?
A: Yes.

Q: On 28th June 2008, were you on-call?
A: Yes, I was on-call.

Q: On that date, did you meet a patient by the name Mohd Saiful Bukhari bin Azlan?
A: Yes.

Q: Can you identify him?
A: Yes. This is Mohd Saiful Bukhari bin Azlan.

SP1 dicamkan oleh SP3.

Q: On 28th June 2008, where did you meet him?
A: At the One Stop Crisis Centre (OSCC) at the Emergency Department HKL.

Q: How did you meet him?
A: I was called by one Dr.[], After I discuss with her, I decided to attend this case at 9.00 p.m. at the OSCC at the Emergency Department together with a specialist medical officer from the Surgical and Emergency Department.

Q: Who are these specialists?
A: Dr. Khairul from the Emergency Department, and Dr. Razali from the Surgical Department.

SP3 identify Dr. Khairul Nizam bin Hassan, and Dr. Mohd Razali bin Ibrahim.

Q: Upon meeting them, did the three of you discuss on the sodomy case?
A: Yes, at the beginning we met the police, we received briefing from the police officer in charge of this case. Subsequently we discuss among ourselves our role in this case.

Q: What was the result of the discussion?
A: The 3 of us will attend the case together. Dr. Khairul Nizam is conduct examination on the bodily injury, Dr. Razali on the anal examination and my major role is conducting forensic specimen.

Q: Approximately at what time in the OSCC room to meet SP1?
A: We met SP1 approximately at 9.30 p.m. on 28th June 2008.

Q: Just for clarification, is this OSCC room also Bilik Mawar?
A: Yes.

Q: Did you meet an officer by the name Judy Blacious?
A: Yes. Inside and outside the room.

SP3 identify ASP Jude Blacious.

Q: Upon entering the OSCC room, what did you do with SP1?
A: Upon meeting SP1, I recorded the history and get his consent before we proceed with the examination.

Q: Why did you need to get consent from him?
A: The consent involve examination of bodily part and the private part, consent for taking photograph of the body and private part and also to take specimen from the body and private part.

Q: You said you get the history, can you tell the court what did Saiful told you?
A: He informs what happened to him that he is being sodomized by a high profile public figure for 8 times for at least the last 2 months and the last incident was on 26th June 2008]. I asked whether any condom was used and he said no, but lubricant was used. I asked whether there is any penetration and he said yes. I asked whether ejaculation occurred and he said yes. I asked whether there is any force used and he said no. SP1 also inform he has undergone an examination at a private hospital, i.e Hospital Pusrawi on 28th June 2008 before attended by us.

KS: I would like to ask for the word “8 times” to be expunged.
NH: We are not trying to add evidence through this witness. We just wanted to say what this witness is inform, nit the truth about it. We cannot stop this witness from telling what was informed to him. The fact remain we are not going to prove the truth made but a statement was made.
KS: The purpose was the truth. In any event, that part was removed from the police report.
YA : It is not part of the charge, not part of the incident in the charge. The word “8 times” is expunged.

Q: In the same interview with Saiful, did Saiful mentioned about plastic inserted into him?
A: No. Not the word plastic.

Q: After the said interview, what happen next?
A: After the interview, we conducted the whole examination at around 9.45 p.m. on 28th June 2008.

Q: With regard to it, did you fill a form of “Borang Permohonan bagi Pemeriksaan Forensik/Toksikologi”
A: Yes. It was filled at the end of the examinantion.

Q: Mohon rujuk Borang Permohonan bagi Pemeriksaan Forensik/Toksikologi kepada saksi. Is this the form?
A: Yes. This is a copy of the form filled by me. It is my handwriting and there is my signature and sealed with HKL seal before I send it to the police officer to be sent to the Chemist Department.

Q: Do you recognised your signature?
A: Yes. At page 4.

Borang Permohonan bagi Pemeriksaan Forensik/Toksikologi dicamkan dan dikemukakan sebagai P26.

Q: At page 1, Para B, what was written there in your handwriting?
A: Alleged sodomy.

Q: At the same page, para B, you mentioned that the alleged sodomy the last episode on 26th June 2008. From where did you get the info?
A: From the patient, SP1.

Q: Whose handwriting is it?
A: My handwriting.

Q: What does the handwriting refer to?
A: The specimen I collected and sent to the Chemistry Department for analysis.

Q: The examination by Dr. Khairul and Dr. Razali, was it done simultaneously or one after another?
A: One after another, but for certain part it was conducted simultaneously.

Q: Were you there during the examination conducted by Dr. Khairul and Dr. Razali?
A: Yes.

Q: Did you see the samples specimen taken by Dr. Khairul and Dr. Razali?
A: Yes.

Q: Please explain what was your role in sample collection?
A: I collect the specimen from Dr. Khairul and Dr. Razali, label and seal it, fill the form and hand it over to the police.

Q: What were the samples extracted by Dr. Khairul?
A: Dr. Khairul collected swab from the left peritonsilar recess for seminal analysis, below the tongue for seminal analysis, left nipple and areola for saliva analysis, right nipple and areola for saliva analysis, body swab for saliva analysis.

Q: Did the samples collected by Dr. Khairul was handed over to you?
A: Yes.

Q: Where did you place the samples handed by Dr. Khairul?
A: I put it in sterile containers and label it.

Q: Where did you get the containers?
A: I brought it together from my department, Forensic Medicine Department.

Q: Were the containers sterile?
A: Yes.

Q: Were the labelling done before you?
A: I labelled the container myself.

Q: Did you write anything on the label?
A: Yes. Briefly including the clinical examination number, the name of the patient, the nature of the specimen, the police report, the name of the doctor.

Q: What were samples taken by Dr. Razali?
A: Samples from peri anal region, low rectal swab, and high rectal swab.

Q: High rectal swab, one or two times taken?
A: Two times.

Q: Was it handed over to you?
A: Yes.

Q: Where did you place them?
A: In containers, sterile bottles, same with what I did with samples from Dr. Khairul.

Q: What did you do with the containers?
A: I label it and sealed the bottle, and asked SP1 to sign the bottle and completed the request form and subsequently handed over to the police officer, Jude Blacious.

Q: Where did you label and seal the container?
A: At the OSCC, in the same room.

Q: How did you label the bottle?
A: I use sticker.

Q: Can you be more specific and describe about the sticker?
A: Sticker bears the logo of Government of Malaysia with the tag Kementerian Kesihatan Malaysia, Jabatan Forensik HKL.

Q: Did you sign the sticker?
A: Yes, I did.

Q: Who else were present in the room when you label it?
A: Dr. Khairul, Dr. Razali, SP1 and Jude Blacious.

Q: What did you do after that?
A: I fill in the form, put the bottle in the plastic bag and handed it over to ASP Jude Blacious on the next day, 29th June 2008 at 12.25 a.m.

Q: Where did you passed it to Jude?
A: In the same room.

Q: Did you sign any form when you hand over the bottle to Jude Blacious?
A: Yes.

Q: Mohon rujuk ID 23,
A: This is the copy of the form handling the specimen to the police officer. The form includes the list of the specimen, and my signature and acknowledgment from the police officer.

Q: Your signature?
A: Right lower half of the document and the police officer on the left lower half of the document.
ID23 dicamkan dan dikemukakan sebagai P23.

Q: Refer para B, no.2 – “Specimen taken from Dr. Khairul and Dr. razali”.
A: Yes.

Q: From whom the specimens were taken?
A: From Mohd Saiful Bukhari, SP1.

Q: You hand over the specimen to Jude Blacious at 12.25 a.m.?
A: Yes.

Q: Did ou make the marking B-B10 on the envelope consisting the specimen?
A: No.

Q: Mohon merujuk saksi dengan ID6(A)-ID6(L). Check one by one, are there your signature and label done by you on the containers?
A: Yes. There are the swab specimens with my handwriting, labelled by me, my signature on the top of the specimen, and SP1’s signature on the side of the specimens.

NH: Pohon ID6(A)-ID6(L) ditanda sebai P6(A)-P6(L).

ID6(A)- ID6(L) ditanda sebagai P6(A)-P6(L).

Q: Mohon rujuk saksi dengan P6(K)-P6(L). This is the container containing “blood from FTA card”.
A: I put my signature on the specimen and at the side is by SP1.

Q: Is the seal intact?
A: No. It has been opened by the Chemist.

Q: At the time you hand it over, is it sealed properly?
A: Yes, the seal was still intact at the time I hand it over to Jude Blacious.

Q: Is the seal by the Chemist intact?
A: Yes. This is not my seal, but the others are mine.

Q: Can you tell the court the procedure by Dr. Razali when he take the sample from SP1.
A: He swabs the peri anal region and put in the bottle labelled by me. He use a sterile swab stick.

Q: What about Dr. Khairul? Did he do the same thing?
A: Yes.

Q: With regard to the examination of SP1, were you with Dr. Razali and Dr. Khairul prepared the report?
A: Yes.

Q: Mohon rujuk P22. Can you tell the court the finding of your examination on SP1?
A: No significant injury on the body and the peri anal area.

Q: Did you put all your findings in the report?
A: Yes.

Q: Can you show your signature on the report?
A: On every page.

Q: What about the last page?
A: Above the name of Dr. Siew Shue Feng.

Q: Can you tell the name of the patient?
A: Mohd Saiful Bukhari bin Azlan.

Q: There is a history mentioned there. Can you read?
A: 23 year old Malay gentleman who alleged sodomized by a well known public figure for the past 2 months. The latest incident took place in the afternoon of 26th June 2008.

Q: Refer page 3, tell the court what are the specimen taken at number 6, 8, 9 and 10.
A: Item 6 – peri anal swab for seminal analysis, Item 8 – high rectal swab for seminal analysis, Item 9 – high rectal swab for seminal analysis and Item 10 – low rectal swab for seminal analysis.

Q: What are the other specimen taken for seminal analysis as stated in no.1 and no.2?
A: No.1 – swab from left peritonsilar recess for seminal analysis, and no.2 – swab from the below of tongue for seminal analysis.

Q: On the same page 3, para 3, stated the report of the chemistry investigation were received by the Department of Forensic Medicine. Have you personally read the Chemist Report?
A: Yes.

Q: May the witness being shown ID25. Is this the Chemist Report that you mentioned just now?
A: Yes. This is the copy of the Chemist Report I read.

Q: Refer page 1, para 1 of ID25 and please read.
A: [read].

Q: Refer page 2, middle para. Start with the word “plastic”. Please read.
A: [read]

Q: Refer back P22, page 3. Below the word “laboratory”. Please read it.
A: [read]

Q: Did you made the said marking B5, B7, B8 and B9?
A: No.

Q: Did you take sight of where B5, B7, B8 and B9 were taken?
A: No.

Q: Do you know the result of the sampling of B5, B7, B8 and B9 when you made the report?
A: No.

Q: Refer P22, page 4, read the conclusion.
A: [read]

Q: Explain what you mean by the statement.
A: We are not able to interpret without knowing the site of the samples.

Q: May the witness being shown ID24. Having identified the sampling and the presence of semen from the high rectal swab what is your conclusion?
A: There’s evidence of penetration, sexual penetration.

Q: Can you conclude there was anal penetration?
A: Yes.

Q: Having identified the presence of semen and the history taken fromSP1, is it consistent with penile penetration?
A: Yes.

Q: Refer P23, conclusion no.1, please read.
A: [read]

Q: Can you explain this statement?
A: There is no conclusive clinical finding suggestive of penetration to the anus/rectum and no significant defensive wound on the body of the patient.

Q: Does this mean there is no penetration at all?
A: No.

Q: Can penetration happen without any sign of injuries?
A: Yes.

Q: Under what circumstances can it happen?
A: It include the delay attended by doctors, use of lubricant, when doing the act there is no undue force, no undue resistance; all this were result to no clinical finding of injury.

Q: Do you agree your conclusion no.1 is based on clinical and physical examination only?
A: Yes. Based on clinical and physical examination only.

Q: On conclusion no.2, you say that you did not know the site of B5, B7, B8 and B9, correct?
A: Yes.

Q: To know the site of B5, B7, B8 and B9, do you agree it is important for a comprehensive complete report?
A: Yes.

Q: Do you agree that the report made by you is a comprehensive and complete report?
A: No. We still have to identify the location.

NH: YA, itu sahaja soalan untuk saksi ini.
KS: We reserve cross.
MY: No objection.
NH: Minta tangguh 10 minit.

[10.54 a.m.] Stand down.

[11.13 a.m.] Kes dipanggil semula.

NH: Pohon panggil saksi seterusnya (SP4), Dr. Khairul.

SP4 mengangkat sumpah di dalam Bahasa Inggeris.

Q: You are now attached at the Putrajaya Hospital?
A: Yes.

Q: Since July 2008?
A: Yes.

Q: Before that in the HKL, in Emergency and Trauma Department?
A: Yes.

Q: For how long?
A: I join since 2004 until June 2008.

Q: What was your position?
A: I’m a Emergency Care Specialist at the Emergency and Trauma (ET) Department at the time of the incident until I’m transferred out.

Q: So you are an Emergency and Trauma clinical specialist?
A: Yes. At the same time also responsible for the running of OSCC Department for cases such as domestic violence.

Q: Involve in forensic examination?
A: Yes.

Q: Please tell the court your academic qualification.
A: I obtain my first degree from University of Bangalore, India. In 2006, I obtain my Masters from USM.

Q: Please tell the court your working experience.
A: Houseman ship at Hospital Teluk Intan, 2001 at Chemor Health Clinic in Perak, 2002 at Emergency Department, Ipoh Hospital, then transferred to HUSM for my Master, during that process I was attached at ET Department HKL until I was qualified in 2006.

Q: From 1998 until 2008 you have conducted forensic examination?
A: 20 cases on sodomy.

Q: Did you undergo any training?
A: In-house training by our society, many courses on my specialty such as trauma cases and managing OSCC.

Q: Are you a member of Malaysian Medical Counsel?
A: Yes.

Q: Any member for other society?
A: []

Q: Have you ever testify the court?
A: Yes.

Q: To the best of your knowledge, did the court accept your testimony?
A: Yes.

Q: On 28th June 2008, were you on-call?
A: Yes.

Q: Did you examine Mohd Saiful, SP1?
A: Yes.

SP4 identifed SP1.

Q: Please tell the court how did you meet SP1.
A: I was called upon by my junior colleague to assist him in examining SP1.

Q: Later did you meet two more specialists in HKL?
A: Yes. Dr. Razali Ibrahim and Dr. Siew Shue Feng..

Q: When the three of you met, did you discuss the case?
A: Yes. We discuss how to approach and how to proceed with the case.
Q: What was the result of the discussion?
A: We agreed that I’ll be the first to examine SP1, then Dr. Razali.

Q: Who did the physical examination?
A: I did it, Dr. Razali on the anal examination.

Q: What was the role of Dr. Siew?
A: Dr. Siew is responsible to handle the sample, do the sampling and give expert opinions on the finding.

Q: After the discussion, what time did you enter the OSCC room to examine SP1?
A: Around 9.25 p.m.

Q: What happen in the room?
A: I started introducing myself and the rest of the team to SP1, and making sure we understand what was the complain, and explain to him the entire process of the examination.

Q: Did SP1 give his consent in regards for taking sample from him?
A: Yes.

Q: During sample taking, did SP1 said anything about plastic being inserted into his anus?
A: No.

Q: After obtaining the information, did you examine him?
A: Yes.

Q: How did you conduct the examination on SP1?
A: I examine him from head to toe. During the process SP1 consented the examination process and I did external examination and leaving the anal examination to Dr. Razali and any finding would be done by the three of us.

Q: What was the finding after examining the external part of SP1?
A: YA, may I refer my notes. [read]

Q: Apart from physical examination, did you take any specimen from SP1?
A: Yes.

Q: What are the specimens taken from SP1?
A: [read notes] I collected samples from the left peritonsilar recess for seminal analysis, below the tongue for seminal analysis, left nipple and areolar for saliva analysis, right nipple and areolar for saliva analysis, body swab for saliva analyis.

Q: Did you take any blood samples?
A: Yes. Blood for FTA card, blood for HIV, HepatitisC and blood for alcohol and toxicology.

Q: Refer the witness with P6A,B,C,D,E,G,L,K. Are these all the samples taken from SP1?
A: Yes.

Q: Who seal all the containers?
A: All specimens were labelled and sealed by Dr. Siew.

Q: How did Dr. Siew assist in collecting the samples taken by you from SP1?
A: During the examination, if there is any finding I will alert the other two specialists, including the measurement, and the remaining work done by Dr. Siew and all clinical procedures were followed.

Q: Is this the container you said just now?
A: Yes.

Q: What are the equipments you used to take sample from SP1?
A: A swab look like a cotton swab, sterilize and placed in plastic cover.

Q: Refer P19, are this the swab stick?
A: Yes.

Q: Are the samples collected from SP1 handed to Dr. Siew?
A: Yes.

Q: Where did you hand it?
A: In the examination room, in the OSCC.

Q: Through out the taking of samples, were the two doctors in the room?
A: Yes.

Q: Did you see Dr. Razali examine SP1?
A: Yes.

Q: Did you see Dr. Razali took samples from SP1?
A: Yes.

Q: After the examination, did the three of you prepare a report?
A: Yes.

Q: Refer P22, is this the report?
A: Yes.

Q: Is your signature there?
A: Yes.

Q: Please tell the court the name of the patient as stated there.
A: Mohd Saiful Bukhari bin Azlan.

Q: At page 3, what are specimens collected at item 6, 8, 9, and 10.
A: [read report] Item 6 – perinanal swab for seminal analysis, Item 8- high rectal swab for seminal analysis, Item 9 – high rectal swab rectal swab for seminal analysis and Item 10 – low rectal swab for seminal analysis.

Q: Apart from the four specimens what are the other specimen taken for seminal analysis?
A: [read report] swab from left peritonsilar and swab from the below tongue

Q: Refer page 3, para 3. Have you personally read the chemist report?
A: Yes.

Q: Refer ID25, is this the chemist report mentioned in P22?
A: Yes.

Q: Refer page 2 of ID25 (chemist report), from the word “plastic []”.
A: [read Chemist Report].

Q: Did you make the said marking B5, B7, B8 and B9?
A: No.

Q: Refer to your report (P22), page 3, bullet 2. Please read.
A: Presence of semen on swab B5, B7, B8 and B9.

Q: Do you know the site of the samples B5, B7, B8 and B9 when you prepare the report?
A: No.

Q: Refer page 4 of P22, the conclusion of the report. Can you explain the statement?
A: This is based on our clinical finding. We need to find anything to support the allegation made by the patient. Based on the physical examination, we find no symptoms of penetration.

Q: When you prepare this report, did you know the site of the sampling taken?
A: No.

Q: Refer ID24, page 2. Can you identify the siteof sampling of B5, B7, B8 and B9.
A: [read].

Q: Having known the site of samplings and the presence of semen, can you conclude there was anal penetration on SP1?
A: Yes.

Q: Having identified the semen from the high rectal swab taken from SP1 and recording of history, can you conclude there is penile penetration?
A: Yes.

Q: Refer to Conclusion 1 of P22. Please explain.
A: Based on the physical finding, we find no physical injury and we have come out with the conclusion which is based only on the physical examination.

Q: Does this statement mean there is no penetration at all?
A: No. That’s why we put the second statement.

Q: Can anal penetration happened without any sign of injury?
A: Yes. The possibilities are the duration of time taken by the victim from the incident present to the doctor, secondly from the allegation from victim there is no resistance, thirdly the use of lubricant.

Q: You did not know the site of sampling of B5,B7, B8 and B9 when making the report. Do you agree knowing the sight will help in making a complete and comprehensive report?
A: Yes.

Q: P22 that you prepared on 13th July 2008, do you agree that without knowing the site of sampling of B5, B7, B8 and B9, is it a complete and comprehensive report?
A: No.

NH: Itu sahaja soalan.
KS: Reserve cross.
YA: You want to continue with cross-examine of SP3 & SP4 or later baru cross SP2?
KS: No. I want to reserve cross for all the three doctors.
YA: All three has given evidence. I was under the impression to finish SP3 & SP4 examination-in-chief then only you will cross-examination them.
KS: No. I’m not ready to cross-examine them today.
MY: I have to agree with KS. They want to wait for the expert and what we agree is for the doctors to be finished first. They may not be able to call the expert today.
YA: So reserve cross until 25th Oct.

[11.53 a.m.] Adjourned.

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